On 10/02/2012 10:43 AM, Tim Bird wrote:

On 10/02/2012 07:31 AM, Jean-Christophe PLAGNIOL-VILLARD wrote:

On 21:44 Mon 01 Oct , Ruud Derwig wrote:

We're always open to suggestions on topics to improve the conference, thanks!

I'd like to propose to have to have sponsored Presentation as you do for
projects work, and maybe include in the project work sponsoring a presentation
about the project or about the work done.

We have done this in the past. ...

Unfortunately, the timing just worked out poorly for ELCE. I had
hoped to get a report on the UBI fastmap work that was recently completed,
but it just missed the deadline for inclusion in the program.

I know this thread is old, but I wanted to let possible ELCE attendees
know that we were able to get Thomas Gleixner to agree to present
the UBI fastmap work at ELCE. This work was funded by the CE Workgroup,
and has the potential to dramatically reduce the mount time for UBIFS
filesystems. If you're interested, his talk will be
on Wednesday afternoon, November 7, at 3:40.

See http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/embedded-linux-conference-europe/schedule

Enjoy!
-- Tim

=============================
Tim Bird
Architecture Group Chair, CE Workgroup of the Linux Foundation
Senior Staff Engineer, Sony Network Entertainment
=============================

On 09/29/2012 05:18 AM, Thomas Petazzoni wrote:

Tim,

On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:33:46 -0700, Tim Bird wrote:

This looks pretty good. I will definitely bookmark it, and can contribute
if you're open to articles being written by outsiders.

I am definitely open to articles being written by outsiders. Do you
want an account so you can write articles?

Do I need an account, now that you've added the "submit a news" form?
I'm thinking not.
-- Tim


=============================
Tim Bird
Architecture Group Chair, CE Workgroup of the Linux Foundation
Senior Staff Engineer, Sony Network Entertainment
=============================

On Tue, Oct 2, 2012 at 11:50 AM, Jean-Christophe PLAGNIOL-VILLARD
<plagnioj@...> wrote:

I'd like to propose a brainstorm on the ML with few pre-selected topics
such as bootloader, kernel, embedded distribution. Where people will ask
about what they would to see happening. No necessarily something they want to
implement more something they would like to have. And then this could be
propose for the next funding.

But I'd like to see those proposition targeting real problem for the embedded.
And implemented on real hw.

Would it be worth setting up a Google Hangout at some point to do this
in person, or are people more comfortable with communicating in
writing?

--
Jeff Osier-Mixon http://jefro.net/blog
Yocto Project Community Manager @Intel http://yoctoproject.org

On 10:43 Tue 02 Oct , Tim Bird wrote:

On 10/02/2012 07:31 AM, Jean-Christophe PLAGNIOL-VILLARD wrote:

On 21:44 Mon 01 Oct , Ruud Derwig wrote:

We're always open to suggestions on topics to improve the conference, thanks!

I'd like to propose to have to have sponsored Presentation as you do for
projects work, and maybe include in the project work sponsoring a presentation
about the project or about the work done.

We have done this in the past. For example, we've had developers report
on squashfs mainlining work, or the watchdog framework work, that was funded by the
CE working group. It is very common for us to include in our contractor
budget some money for 'event sponsorship', so that we can help publicize
the projects we are funding. (We wouldn't fund them if we didn't think
anyone was interested in them.)

Unfortunately, the timing just worked out poorly for ELCE. I had
hoped to get a report on the UBI fastmap work that was recently completed,
but it just missed the deadline for inclusion in the program. We
are working on a project that is nearing completion now,
on kernel dynamic memory allocation analysis, and trying to have
it reported on at ELC early next year. That one was also not quite
ready in time for ELCE.

I share your concern that we try to get cutting edge topics of interest
to as many developers as possible. And, I completely agree with you
that it would be great to have ongoing discussions about the types
of things that would benefit from CE Workgroup funding and sponsored
exposure at conferences,

I'd like to propose a brainstorm on the ML with few pre-selected topics
such as bootloader, kernel, embedded distribution. Where people will ask
about what they would to see happening. No necessarily something they want to
implement more something they would like to have. And then this could be
propose for the next funding.

But I'd like to see those proposition targeting real problem for the embedded.
And implemented on real hw.

Best Regards,
J.

On 11:20 Tue 02 Oct , Jeff Osier-Mixon wrote:

Getting back to some ideas for building communities at conferences,
one idea I had was to designate areas of the venue for specific topic
areas (throughout the event). Basically, it would be like a themed
hallway track. For example, there might be a specific couch or lounge
designated for people interested in boot time. That would be a place to
drop by and check out every once in a while, and listen to conversations
and meet people with similar interests. BOFs are good for getting groups
together, but many people are more comfortable with conversations one-on-one
or in small groups.

I think this is a very good idea. They did this at OSCON at lunch
tables. The venue uses large tables that seat 10-12 people, and for
each table or group of tables they put up signs saying things like
"Python Geeks" or "Managers" or "Kernel Hackers" etc. It was very
successful in bringing people together who knew they had at least one
thing in common. At a focused conference like ELC/ELCE we could create
very specific areas for discussion.

I like it a lot too it will more intresting than the training course
specially if you can bring hackers that people can come to discuss with

Best Regards,
J.

Getting back to some ideas for building communities at conferences,
one idea I had was to designate areas of the venue for specific topic
areas (throughout the event). Basically, it would be like a themed
hallway track. For example, there might be a specific couch or lounge
designated for people interested in boot time. That would be a place to
drop by and check out every once in a while, and listen to conversations
and meet people with similar interests. BOFs are good for getting groups
together, but many people are more comfortable with conversations one-on-one
or in small groups.

I think this is a very good idea. They did this at OSCON at lunch
tables. The venue uses large tables that seat 10-12 people, and for
each table or group of tables they put up signs saying things like
"Python Geeks" or "Managers" or "Kernel Hackers" etc. It was very
successful in bringing people together who knew they had at least one
thing in common. At a focused conference like ELC/ELCE we could create
very specific areas for discussion.

I was at an event once, where a large room was divided into 9 sections,
and each section had a sign indicating a technology area or feature, and
people met, introduced themselves, did a series of lightning talks and
brainstorming. After only 20 minutes or so, an announcement was made and people
went on to another topic. This was done a few times. It worked really
well for the number we had (about 150 people), but I don't know if it
would scale up to something the size of our current events.

This is very much like an "unconference", which can be very dynamic if
done properly (and very chaotic if done poorly). There are a number of
styles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unconference). It sounds like you
were doing the Lightning Talk style.

I attend and help coordinate two of these every year for community
management (using something closer to Barcamp style), and can
recommend a few folks in the Bay Area who know how it is done. We had
over 200 people at the last one in July, and I think going too far
beyond that might stretch the point of diminishing returns, but
overall it is a very dynamic way to bring people together and
stimulate discussions.

--
Jeff Osier-Mixon http://jefro.net/blog
Yocto Project Community Manager @Intel http://yoctoproject.org

On 10/02/2012 07:31 AM, Jean-Christophe PLAGNIOL-VILLARD wrote:

On 21:44 Mon 01 Oct , Ruud Derwig wrote:

We're always open to suggestions on topics to improve the conference, thanks!

I'd like to propose to have to have sponsored Presentation as you do for
projects work, and maybe include in the project work sponsoring a presentation
about the project or about the work done.

We have done this in the past. For example, we've had developers report
on squashfs mainlining work, or the watchdog framework work, that was funded by the
CE working group. It is very common for us to include in our contractor
budget some money for 'event sponsorship', so that we can help publicize
the projects we are funding. (We wouldn't fund them if we didn't think
anyone was interested in them.)

Unfortunately, the timing just worked out poorly for ELCE. I had
hoped to get a report on the UBI fastmap work that was recently completed,
but it just missed the deadline for inclusion in the program. We
are working on a project that is nearing completion now,
on kernel dynamic memory allocation analysis, and trying to have
it reported on at ELC early next year. That one was also not quite
ready in time for ELCE.

I share your concern that we try to get cutting edge topics of interest
to as many developers as possible. And, I completely agree with you
that it would be great to have ongoing discussions about the types
of things that would benefit from CE Workgroup funding and sponsored
exposure at conferences,

Getting back to some ideas for building communities at conferences,
one idea I had was to designate areas of the venue for specific topic
areas (throughout the event). Basically, it would be like a themed
hallway track. For example, there might be a specific couch or lounge
designated for people interested in boot time. That would be a place to
drop by and check out every once in a while, and listen to conversations
and meet people with similar interests. BOFs are good for getting groups
together, but many people are more comfortable with conversations one-on-one
or in small groups.

I was at an event once, where a large room was divided into 9 sections,
and each section had a sign indicating a technology area or feature, and
people met, introduced themselves, did a series of lightning talks and
brainstorming. After only 20 minutes or so, an announcement was made and people
went on to another topic. This was done a few times. It worked really
well for the number we had (about 150 people), but I don't know if it
would scale up to something the size of our current events.
-- Tim


=============================
Tim Bird
Architecture Group Chair, CE Workgroup of the Linux Foundation
Senior Staff Engineer, Sony Network Entertainment
=============================

On 21:44 Mon 01 Oct , Ruud Derwig wrote:

Hello Jean-Christophe,

Thanks for your feedback on the ELC-E, I'd like to react on that part of your mail below.
We do our best to make the conference interesting for a broad embedded Linux audience and have a mix of both
entry-level/tutorial type of talks and more in depths talks.

Sorry to hear you missed some topics last year and were disappointed by the quality of others. I hope you'll like
this year's Barcelona edition better.

I'll watch them online this time I stay in SH

Personnaly I'd like to have better presentation and topics maybe fund by the ELCE to presnet people how to solve
current issue in the embedded. Such as boot time, update system, GPL etc...

Sascha will present on Barebox, including the update feature: "... USB updating techniques ...". And Arnout from Mind
will talk about Upgrading (without bricking), too.
Also boottime will be covered: Alexandre from Adeneo will talk about boottime optimizations, and we're trying to set-up
a couple of additional BoFs where boottime & bootloaders could be covered, too.

I saw it and I known all of them

We're always open to suggestions on topics to improve the conference, thanks!

I'd like to propose to have to have sponsored Presentation as you do for
projects work, and maybe include in the project work sponsoring a presentation
about the project or about the work done.

To ensure quality of the presentation and not only topics

In my mind Celinux should push work to be done with presentation that solve
issue in the embendded. Maybe we could have here on the list a brainstorm
about it.

I was thinking of some poeple
- Tim Bird
- Thomas Petazzoni
- others
- and myself

Best Regards,
J.

Ruud & ELC-E program committee.

-----Original Message-----
From: celinux-dev-bounces@... [mailto:celinux-dev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Jean-Christophe PLAGNIOL-VILLARD
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 11:56 PM
To: Tim Bird
Cc: CE Linux Developers List
Subject: Re: [Celinux-dev] embedded Linux community - some ideas...

On 09:12 Fri 28 Sep , Tim Bird wrote:

Hi everyone,

I have for some time been considering the state of the embedded Linux
community, and some of the challenges facing us. As an embedded Linux
developer myself, I am interested in improving both my own working
conditions and my efficiency and effectiveness in my own projects.
But also I think we could be having more fun, and learning and growing
more if our community were stronger.

In this message I am writing some of my own ideas, and would like to
solicit feedback on these and get other people's ideas as well.

I think the greatest challenge of developing embedded products using
open source software is fragmentation. Fragmentation is not new to
open source, or software in general. I have been called out for
saying that the issues that embedded contributors have, relative to
mainlining code, are different from those of other developers. That
is, I've asserted that embedded is somehow "special", and people (like
Greg KH) have disagreed.

I think every group developing Linux has to identify those areas of
commonality that they can work on together, and separate them from the
areas of divergence, where there is not enough common ground that it
makes sense to collaborate or even attempt to push things upstream.
In this regard (to disagree with Greg), I think embedded
*is* different than other Linux use areas. I think the very nature of
embedded, which at it's core consists of making customized solutions,
tends to run counter to the nature of open source, which tries to
leverage commonality and sharing.

And so I worry sometimes about how to increase our commonality, and in
particular how to encourage more sharing and discussion within our
community.

As a concrete example, I have been working lately on 4k stacks for the
ARM kernel. The particular use case for this is very special within
Sony -- or at least it appears to me to be a rather uncommon usage
scenario. But here's the thing...
How do I know there's not some other developer somewhere struggling
with something similar? - maybe not the identical problem, but one
where 4K stacks would help their situation?

I attempted last year to submit my ARM 4K patches upstream. However,
I got some pushback, and I didn't really see others with similar use
cases that required this, and so I didn't push it as hard as needed to
get it mainlined. There will always be some weird things that really
shouldn't go upstream (and should be kept in someone's local
repository -- something that if they decide is needed can be
maintained out-of-tree.) However, I've been bothered by the idea that
possibly I just didn't connect with the right people or find those who
might also benefit from this work.

And this led me back to thinking about the community. One of the
foundational premises of open source is that of using network effects
to overcome shared challenges. Eric Raymond's famous "to enough eyes,
all bugs are shallow" comes to mind. If one can find enough people
with the same interests, open source offers a way to collaborate on
solutions rather than create and maintain them all by oneself.

I'm worried that even after years of trying to build community ties,
through things such as conferences, summits, the elinux wiki, this
mailing list, and the CE Linux Forum (and it's successor the CE
Workgroup), the embedded Linux developers still haven't "come
together" as a community as well as they could.

To be honest, I think that many of our previous efforts, while good in
their own right, have not caught fire the way we had hoped. For
example, elinux.org has some great areas dedicated to BeagleBoard and
Raspberry Pi, and the section on boot time has lots of good material.
But the content in some other areas is outdated or otherwise lacking.
We have had occasional bursts of energy at improving the site
(sometimes spurred by a contest or conference event), but overall we
have not gotten a sustained population of contributors to the site.

eLinux.org is just one example. There are numerous other examples of
places where there should be vibrant communication of embedded Linux
information and discussion of issues. Among the best things we have,
I believe, is our conferences, (ELC, ELCE, the Japan Jamborees, and
various other events). I'm always excited to meet with other
developers and hear about what they're working on. But only a small
number of developers, out of the literally tens of thousands of
embedded Linux developers worldwide, can attend those. And even then
we only have room for 40 to 50 presentation topics - which are,
themselves, pretty specialized. We try to spread the information,
through things like publishing the presentations, and videos. But, as
worthwhile as those are, it doesn't increase the interactivity of the community.

So, I have a few ideas I'd like to float out there:

1) I'd like to resurrect this list, and encourage people to use it to
discuss general topics of interest for embedded Linux. I will be
trying over the next few months to discuss things related to system
size on this list, and in particular the projects I'm working on to
reduce kernel size. I don't want this list to become LKML, where the
traffic is so high that everyone ignores it. Hopefully we can
increase the traffic, but still keep it limited and relevant for those
who are working with general embedded Linux problems (you know, the
classics: size, boot-time, file systems, real-time, security,
graphics, embedded distros, etc.)

2) I'd like to try to get more focused groups at upcoming conferences.
Specifically, at ELC Europe and ELC I'd like to try to steer people
with common interests toward each other. I'm not sure the exact
mechanism to use for this. Other sub-communities tend to use
mini-summits for this. The problem with these is that they are
limiting in terms of number of participants, and you kind of have to
know ahead of time who to invite. I'd like to use a more open approach.
Sometimes just identifying the people who attended a particular
presentation will help you find those who are interested in or
actively working on a particular topic area. The "hallway tracks"
of conferences are often where the most interesting and fruitful
discussions occur. Somehow I'd like to introduce people of like
interests, and let them initiate their hallway tracks on their own,
without a lot of pre-invitations or formal setup.
Does anyone have ideas on how to do this?

To be less abstract: I'm leaning towards having a "size" summit at
ELC. What's the best way to get people there who are (still)
interested in reducing the kernel and user-space size for embedded
Linux systems?

one of the issue with the ELCE is the quality of the presentation I'm been watching and beend at the ELCE for years and the last time I've there was after the kernel summit in Prague. ANd I was quite disapointed by the presentation quality content. To give an example we had a conference about boot time. This was done by TI folks but the presentation was about how the speaker out systemd on the beaglebone. He present us and he did boot it's UI in 1s since the kernel jump. This is nothing special in 2009 I've already done for a customer a boot in less than 1s (600ms) from power cycle to UI. Sascha did less than 400ms on imx.

Personnaly I'd like to have better presentation and topics maybe fund by the ELCE to presnet people how to solve current issue in the embedded.
Such as boot time, update system, GPL etc...

Today we ahave as example no project ot provide a linux updater.

In Barebox we have DFU which is an updater but it will be good to have a mini-linux distribution for advance updater with UI

This kind of project will help the embedded world

For the kernel as you describe the XIP is broken and need to be fixed but when non mainline people try to push embedded stuff there push back sometimes hardly because they have no background so I think Linx kernel Maintainers should do as do Arnd for arm-soc the link between embedded and Mainline

3) I'm looking for ways to invigorate the elinux.org wiki site.
I have a few projects that I'll (hopefully) be announcing in the next
few weeks (and, also hopefully, making a major push for at ELCE in
about 6 weeks).

Finally, 4) I'm also looking for ways to increase the involvement in
and use of the LTSI kernel. I have a sense that it is starting to get
visibility and usage, but I have no solid indicators that tell me yet
whether a community is building or not around that kernel version.

I'll start working on these by making a concerted effort to invite
people to the celinux-dev mailing list. For historical reasons, it
doesn't have the most relevant name for what I'd like to achieve.
But it's a place to start (and, thankfully, it's administered by
someone besides me!). Also, I'll try to post more often on this list
myself, to start to encourage the type of communication I'd like to
see more of in the future.

Am I the only one who feels like this?
(If so, it may be a frustrating couple of months, with a feeling like
I'm pushing on a string.) Do you have ideas for how to build and
improve the embedded Linux community? Or, do you have ideas for what
might be blocking it?

Project arround hardware help to improve the community Maybe elinux could work arround this too.

I've got lots more to say, but this is already long enough.
(Just wait until you hear my philosophy of kernel size reduction...
;-)

I do work on this too but I do not think it will be easy at the mainline as arm and linaro push more and more on single zImage and co that are not so compatible with kernel size reduction.

Best Regards,
J.
_______________________________________________
Celinux-dev mailing list
Celinux-dev@...
https://lists.celinuxforum.org/mailman/listinfo/celinux-dev

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 12:59 PM, Tim Bird <tim.bird@...> wrote:

On 09/28/2012 09:29 AM, Robert Schwebel wrote:

Hi Tim,

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 09:12:35AM -0700, Tim Bird wrote:

For example, elinux.org has some great areas dedicated to BeagleBoard
and Raspberry Pi, and the section on boot time has lots of good
material. But the content in some other areas is outdated or otherwise
lacking.

I wouldn't worry too much, elinux.org is still a great site! Just
organize a few sprints with nice giveaways at ELC-E from time to time :)

Some should coordinate or encourage a kind of adoption party for
embedded linux subject matter on elinux.org. As much as I'd like to
research and rewrite all of the sections myself, I think the task may
be to large for one person. I'd happily herd as many willing
participants though in order to improve specific sections of the wiki.

I guess I should make sure we get some nice giveaways at ELCE coming
up. :-) We weren't sure if we were going to run a contest, but
maybe it would make sense (if I can get some prize donors), especially
since I'll be announcing a new project that allows micro-contributions.

Micro-contributions?

Last year after ELC-E after a mini-crossbuild-summit, we asked if it was
possible to get planet.elinux.org as an RSS aggregator site, similar to
planet.linaro.org, planetkde.org etc. I still think the idea is great,
as it would give us a central place to look at if you want to know what
the embedded Linux community is doing.

What do you think? Would that be possible, technically?

I think it would be a good thing to try out...

We discussed this, and I think Bill Traynor (the elinux admin)
outlined a plan - but we didn't end up doing it for some reason.
Maybe Bill can tell us the status, and whether we could move
forward with it.

I have setup the software with OSUOSL at http://planet.elinux.org but
got sidetracked and didn't finish setting up the look and feel. I'll
try to get to that asap and then set up the link within the left nav
on the wiki. I'll announce it as well on this mailing list and
others.

Among the best things we have, I believe, is our conferences, (ELC,
ELCE, the Japan Jamborees, and various other events).

Very true!

What about live streaming, to reach more people? :-)

We did live-streaming at ELC, but (for reasons I'm not aware of)
will not be live-streaming ELCE. I think the plan going forward
is to live-stream as much as possible. Free Electrons plans to
be at ELCE and record video again (thanks very much!!)

To be less abstract: I'm leaning towards having a "size" summit at
ELC. What's the best way to get people there who are (still)
interested in reducing the kernel and user-space size for embedded
Linux systems?

Well, that's in fact *really* special, as even in Embedded, size isn't
so much of an issue as it was previously. However, due to our Cortex-M3
activities, it is currently interesting for us.

This is exactly the type of thing I'm interested in hearing about!

I started looking at some size issues on Coretex-M3 back in May. Then
I went to LinuxCon Japan in June, and during a lightning session a
developer there started talking about how he was working on Coretex-M3.
I about fell out of my chair.

I suspect this scenario is rampant within each area of development.

I think concern about size is ready for a comeback!! At least, that's
what I'm hoping. :-)
-- Tim

P.S. BTW: My goal is kernel in 1M and system in 4M RAM (with 8M NOR flash,
so, you know, XIP and all is OK.) If anyone has got a system running
close to these specs, let me know. I'd REALLY love to hear about it.

P.P.S. Note that the virtualization guys would love a system this small,
if it wasn't hobbled too bad. Think of the number of images you could
run (and charge for) simultaneously on big hardware if you could get Linux
to go this small. I have some crazy ideas about how to get there,
based on some academic research I've found...

=============================
Tim Bird
Architecture Group Chair, CE Workgroup of the Linux Foundation
Senior Staff Engineer, Sony Network Entertainment
=============================

Hello Jean-Christophe,

Thanks for your feedback on the ELC-E, I'd like to react on that part of your mail below.
We do our best to make the conference interesting for a broad embedded Linux audience and have a mix of both
entry-level/tutorial type of talks and more in depths talks.

Sorry to hear you missed some topics last year and were disappointed by the quality of others. I hope you'll like
this year's Barcelona edition better.

Personnaly I'd like to have better presentation and topics maybe fund by the ELCE to presnet people how to solve
current issue in the embedded. Such as boot time, update system, GPL etc...

Sascha will present on Barebox, including the update feature: "... USB updating techniques ...". And Arnout from Mind
will talk about Upgrading (without bricking), too.
Also boottime will be covered: Alexandre from Adeneo will talk about boottime optimizations, and we're trying to set-up
a couple of additional BoFs where boottime & bootloaders could be covered, too.

We're always open to suggestions on topics to improve the conference, thanks!

Ruud & ELC-E program committee.

-----Original Message-----
From: celinux-dev-bounces@... [mailto:celinux-dev-bounces@...] On Behalf Of Jean-Christophe PLAGNIOL-VILLARD
Sent: Friday, September 28, 2012 11:56 PM
To: Tim Bird
Cc: CE Linux Developers List
Subject: Re: [Celinux-dev] embedded Linux community - some ideas...

On 09:12 Fri 28 Sep , Tim Bird wrote:

Hi everyone,

I have for some time been considering the state of the embedded Linux
community, and some of the challenges facing us. As an embedded Linux
developer myself, I am interested in improving both my own working
conditions and my efficiency and effectiveness in my own projects.
But also I think we could be having more fun, and learning and growing
more if our community were stronger.

In this message I am writing some of my own ideas, and would like to
solicit feedback on these and get other people's ideas as well.

I think the greatest challenge of developing embedded products using
open source software is fragmentation. Fragmentation is not new to
open source, or software in general. I have been called out for
saying that the issues that embedded contributors have, relative to
mainlining code, are different from those of other developers. That
is, I've asserted that embedded is somehow "special", and people (like
Greg KH) have disagreed.

I think every group developing Linux has to identify those areas of
commonality that they can work on together, and separate them from the
areas of divergence, where there is not enough common ground that it
makes sense to collaborate or even attempt to push things upstream.
In this regard (to disagree with Greg), I think embedded
*is* different than other Linux use areas. I think the very nature of
embedded, which at it's core consists of making customized solutions,
tends to run counter to the nature of open source, which tries to
leverage commonality and sharing.

And so I worry sometimes about how to increase our commonality, and in
particular how to encourage more sharing and discussion within our
community.

As a concrete example, I have been working lately on 4k stacks for the
ARM kernel. The particular use case for this is very special within
Sony -- or at least it appears to me to be a rather uncommon usage
scenario. But here's the thing...
How do I know there's not some other developer somewhere struggling
with something similar? - maybe not the identical problem, but one
where 4K stacks would help their situation?

I attempted last year to submit my ARM 4K patches upstream. However,
I got some pushback, and I didn't really see others with similar use
cases that required this, and so I didn't push it as hard as needed to
get it mainlined. There will always be some weird things that really
shouldn't go upstream (and should be kept in someone's local
repository -- something that if they decide is needed can be
maintained out-of-tree.) However, I've been bothered by the idea that
possibly I just didn't connect with the right people or find those who
might also benefit from this work.

And this led me back to thinking about the community. One of the
foundational premises of open source is that of using network effects
to overcome shared challenges. Eric Raymond's famous "to enough eyes,
all bugs are shallow" comes to mind. If one can find enough people
with the same interests, open source offers a way to collaborate on
solutions rather than create and maintain them all by oneself.

I'm worried that even after years of trying to build community ties,
through things such as conferences, summits, the elinux wiki, this
mailing list, and the CE Linux Forum (and it's successor the CE
Workgroup), the embedded Linux developers still haven't "come
together" as a community as well as they could.

To be honest, I think that many of our previous efforts, while good in
their own right, have not caught fire the way we had hoped. For
example, elinux.org has some great areas dedicated to BeagleBoard and
Raspberry Pi, and the section on boot time has lots of good material.
But the content in some other areas is outdated or otherwise lacking.
We have had occasional bursts of energy at improving the site
(sometimes spurred by a contest or conference event), but overall we
have not gotten a sustained population of contributors to the site.

eLinux.org is just one example. There are numerous other examples of
places where there should be vibrant communication of embedded Linux
information and discussion of issues. Among the best things we have,
I believe, is our conferences, (ELC, ELCE, the Japan Jamborees, and
various other events). I'm always excited to meet with other
developers and hear about what they're working on. But only a small
number of developers, out of the literally tens of thousands of
embedded Linux developers worldwide, can attend those. And even then
we only have room for 40 to 50 presentation topics - which are,
themselves, pretty specialized. We try to spread the information,
through things like publishing the presentations, and videos. But, as
worthwhile as those are, it doesn't increase the interactivity of the community.

So, I have a few ideas I'd like to float out there:

1) I'd like to resurrect this list, and encourage people to use it to
discuss general topics of interest for embedded Linux. I will be
trying over the next few months to discuss things related to system
size on this list, and in particular the projects I'm working on to
reduce kernel size. I don't want this list to become LKML, where the
traffic is so high that everyone ignores it. Hopefully we can
increase the traffic, but still keep it limited and relevant for those
who are working with general embedded Linux problems (you know, the
classics: size, boot-time, file systems, real-time, security,
graphics, embedded distros, etc.)

2) I'd like to try to get more focused groups at upcoming conferences.
Specifically, at ELC Europe and ELC I'd like to try to steer people
with common interests toward each other. I'm not sure the exact
mechanism to use for this. Other sub-communities tend to use
mini-summits for this. The problem with these is that they are
limiting in terms of number of participants, and you kind of have to
know ahead of time who to invite. I'd like to use a more open approach.
Sometimes just identifying the people who attended a particular
presentation will help you find those who are interested in or
actively working on a particular topic area. The "hallway tracks"
of conferences are often where the most interesting and fruitful
discussions occur. Somehow I'd like to introduce people of like
interests, and let them initiate their hallway tracks on their own,
without a lot of pre-invitations or formal setup.
Does anyone have ideas on how to do this?

To be less abstract: I'm leaning towards having a "size" summit at
ELC. What's the best way to get people there who are (still)
interested in reducing the kernel and user-space size for embedded
Linux systems?

one of the issue with the ELCE is the quality of the presentation I'm been watching and beend at the ELCE for years and the last time I've there was after the kernel summit in Prague. ANd I was quite disapointed by the presentation quality content. To give an example we had a conference about boot time. This was done by TI folks but the presentation was about how the speaker out systemd on the beaglebone. He present us and he did boot it's UI in 1s since the kernel jump. This is nothing special in 2009 I've already done for a customer a boot in less than 1s (600ms) from power cycle to UI. Sascha did less than 400ms on imx.

Personnaly I'd like to have better presentation and topics maybe fund by the ELCE to presnet people how to solve current issue in the embedded.
Such as boot time, update system, GPL etc...

Today we ahave as example no project ot provide a linux updater.

In Barebox we have DFU which is an updater but it will be good to have a mini-linux distribution for advance updater with UI

This kind of project will help the embedded world

For the kernel as you describe the XIP is broken and need to be fixed but when non mainline people try to push embedded stuff there push back sometimes hardly because they have no background so I think Linx kernel Maintainers should do as do Arnd for arm-soc the link between embedded and Mainline

3) I'm looking for ways to invigorate the elinux.org wiki site.
I have a few projects that I'll (hopefully) be announcing in the next
few weeks (and, also hopefully, making a major push for at ELCE in
about 6 weeks).

Finally, 4) I'm also looking for ways to increase the involvement in
and use of the LTSI kernel. I have a sense that it is starting to get
visibility and usage, but I have no solid indicators that tell me yet
whether a community is building or not around that kernel version.

I'll start working on these by making a concerted effort to invite
people to the celinux-dev mailing list. For historical reasons, it
doesn't have the most relevant name for what I'd like to achieve.
But it's a place to start (and, thankfully, it's administered by
someone besides me!). Also, I'll try to post more often on this list
myself, to start to encourage the type of communication I'd like to
see more of in the future.

Am I the only one who feels like this?
(If so, it may be a frustrating couple of months, with a feeling like
I'm pushing on a string.) Do you have ideas for how to build and
improve the embedded Linux community? Or, do you have ideas for what
might be blocking it?

Project arround hardware help to improve the community Maybe elinux could work arround this too.

I've got lots more to say, but this is already long enough.
(Just wait until you hear my philosophy of kernel size reduction...
;-)

I do work on this too but I do not think it will be easy at the mainline as arm and linaro push more and more on single zImage and co that are not so compatible with kernel size reduction.

Best Regards,
J.
_______________________________________________
Celinux-dev mailing list
Celinux-dev@...
https://lists.celinuxforum.org/mailman/listinfo/celinux-dev

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 14:18:38 +0200, Thomas Petazzoni wrote:

In addition to creating accounts to a limited set of well-known
contributors, I would also like in the future to have a public page for
people to submit news.

Done: http://www.emlinews.net/submit/

Thomas
--
Thomas Petazzoni, Free Electrons
Kernel, drivers, real-time and embedded Linux
development, consulting, training and support.
http://free-electrons.com

Tim,

On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 10:33:46 -0700, Tim Bird wrote:

This looks pretty good. I will definitely bookmark it, and can contribute
if you're open to articles being written by outsiders.

I am definitely open to articles being written by outsiders. Do you
want an account so you can write articles? Each article mentions the
author at the end, so every author gets credited for its writings.

In addition to creating accounts to a limited set of well-known
contributors, I would also like in the future to have a public page for
people to submit news.

Best regards,

Thomas
--
Thomas Petazzoni, Free Electrons
Kernel, drivers, real-time and embedded Linux
development, consulting, training and support.
http://free-electrons.com

On 09/28/2012 02:56 PM, Jean-Christophe PLAGNIOL-VILLARD wrote:

On 09:12 Fri 28 Sep , Tim Bird wrote:

(Just wait until you hear my philosophy of kernel size reduction... ;-)

I do work on this too but I do not think it will be easy at the mainline as
arm and linaro push more and more on single zImage and co that are not so
compatible with kernel size reduction.

Indeed. I worry that ARM is no longer focused on serving
the needs of embedded*
-- Tim

* I'm not counting Android in the category of embedded here.

=============================
Tim Bird
Architecture Group Chair, CE Workgroup of the Linux Foundation
Senior Staff Engineer, Sony Network Entertainment
=============================

On 09:12 Fri 28 Sep , Tim Bird wrote:

Hi everyone,

I have for some time been considering the state of the embedded
Linux community, and some of the challenges facing us. As an
embedded Linux developer myself, I am interested in improving
both my own working conditions and my efficiency and
effectiveness in my own projects. But also I think we could
be having more fun, and learning and growing more if our
community were stronger.

In this message I am writing some of my own ideas, and would like
to solicit feedback on these and get other people's ideas as well.

I think the greatest challenge of developing embedded products
using open source software is fragmentation. Fragmentation is
not new to open source, or software in general. I have been
called out for saying that the issues that embedded contributors
have, relative to mainlining code, are different from those of
other developers. That is, I've asserted that embedded is somehow
"special", and people (like Greg KH) have disagreed.

I think every group developing Linux has to identify those areas
of commonality that they can work on together, and separate them
from the areas of divergence, where there is not enough common ground
that it makes sense to collaborate or even attempt to push things
upstream. In this regard (to disagree with Greg), I think embedded
*is* different than other Linux use areas. I think the very nature of
embedded, which at it's core consists of making customized solutions,
tends to run counter to the nature of open source, which tries to
leverage commonality and sharing.

And so I worry sometimes about how to increase our commonality,
and in particular how to encourage more sharing and discussion
within our community.

As a concrete example, I have been working lately on 4k
stacks for the ARM kernel. The particular use case for this is
very special within Sony -- or at least it appears to me to be a
rather uncommon usage scenario. But here's the thing...
How do I know there's not some other developer somewhere struggling
with something similar? - maybe not the identical problem, but one
where 4K stacks would help their situation?

I attempted last year to submit my ARM 4K patches upstream. However,
I got some pushback, and I didn't really see others with similar use
cases that required this, and so I didn't push it as hard as needed to
get it mainlined. There will always be some weird things that really
shouldn't go upstream (and should be kept in someone's local
repository -- something that if they decide is needed can be
maintained out-of-tree.) However, I've been bothered by the idea
that possibly I just didn't connect with the right people or find
those who might also benefit from this work.

And this led me back to thinking about the community. One of the
foundational premises of open source is that of using network effects
to overcome shared challenges. Eric Raymond's famous "to enough eyes,
all bugs are shallow" comes to mind. If one can find enough people
with the same interests, open source offers a way to collaborate on
solutions rather than create and maintain them all by oneself.

I'm worried that even after years of trying to build community ties,
through things such as conferences, summits, the elinux wiki,
this mailing list, and the CE Linux Forum (and it's successor the
CE Workgroup), the embedded Linux developers still haven't
"come together" as a community as well as they could.

To be honest, I think that many of our previous efforts, while good
in their own right, have not caught fire the way we had hoped. For
example, elinux.org has some great areas dedicated to BeagleBoard and
Raspberry Pi, and the section on boot time has lots of good material.
But the content in some other areas is outdated or otherwise lacking.
We have had occasional bursts of energy at improving the site
(sometimes spurred by a contest or conference event), but overall
we have not gotten a sustained population of contributors to the site.

eLinux.org is just one example. There are numerous other examples of
places where there should be vibrant communication of embedded Linux
information and discussion of issues. Among the best things we have, I
believe, is our conferences, (ELC, ELCE, the Japan Jamborees, and
various other events). I'm always excited to meet with other developers
and hear about what they're working on. But only a small number of
developers, out of the literally tens of thousands of embedded Linux
developers worldwide, can attend those. And even then we only have
room for 40 to 50 presentation topics - which are, themselves, pretty
specialized. We try to spread the information, through things
like publishing the presentations, and videos. But, as worthwhile
as those are, it doesn't increase the interactivity of the community.

So, I have a few ideas I'd like to float out there:

1) I'd like to resurrect this list, and encourage people to use it
to discuss general topics of interest for embedded Linux. I will be
trying over the next few months to discuss things related to system
size on this list, and in particular the projects I'm working on to
reduce kernel size. I don't want this list to become LKML, where
the traffic is so high that everyone ignores it. Hopefully we can
increase the traffic, but still keep it limited and relevant for those
who are working with general embedded Linux problems (you know, the
classics: size, boot-time, file systems, real-time, security,
graphics, embedded distros, etc.)

2) I'd like to try to get more focused groups at upcoming conferences.
Specifically, at ELC Europe and ELC I'd like to try to steer people
with common interests toward each other. I'm not sure the exact
mechanism to use for this. Other sub-communities tend to use
mini-summits for this. The problem with these is that they are
limiting in terms of number of participants, and you kind of have to
know ahead of time who to invite. I'd like to use a more open approach.
Sometimes just identifying the people who attended a particular
presentation will help you find those who are interested in or
actively working on a particular topic area. The "hallway tracks"
of conferences are often where the most interesting and fruitful
discussions occur. Somehow I'd like to introduce people of like
interests, and let them initiate their hallway tracks on their
own, without a lot of pre-invitations or formal setup.
Does anyone have ideas on how to do this?

To be less abstract: I'm leaning towards having a "size" summit
at ELC. What's the best way to get people there who are (still)
interested in reducing the kernel and user-space size for embedded
Linux systems?

one of the issue with the ELCE is the quality of the presentation I'm been
watching and beend at the ELCE for years and the last time I've there was
after the kernel summit in Prague. ANd I was quite disapointed by the
presentation quality content. To give an example we had a conference about
boot time. This was done by TI folks but the presentation was about how the
speaker out systemd on the beaglebone. He present us and he did boot it's UI
in 1s since the kernel jump. This is nothing special in 2009 I've already done
for a customer a boot in less than 1s (600ms) from power cycle to UI. Sascha
did less than 400ms on imx.

Personnaly I'd like to have better presentation and topics maybe fund by the
ELCE to presnet people how to solve current issue in the embedded.
Such as boot time, update system, GPL etc...

Today we ahave as example no project ot provide a linux updater.

In Barebox we have DFU which is an updater but it will be good to have a
mini-linux distribution for advance updater with UI

This kind of project will help the embedded world

For the kernel as you describe the XIP is broken and need to be fixed but when
non mainline people try to push embedded stuff there push back sometimes
hardly because they have no background so I think Linx kernel Maintainers
should do as do Arnd for arm-soc the link between embedded and Mainline

3) I'm looking for ways to invigorate the elinux.org wiki site.
I have a few projects that I'll (hopefully) be announcing in the
next few weeks (and, also hopefully, making a major push for at
ELCE in about 6 weeks).

Finally, 4) I'm also looking for ways to increase the involvement
in and use of the LTSI kernel. I have a sense that it is starting
to get visibility and usage, but I have no solid indicators that
tell me yet whether a community is building or not around that
kernel version.

I'll start working on these by making a concerted effort to invite
people to the celinux-dev mailing list. For historical reasons,
it doesn't have the most relevant name for what I'd like to achieve.
But it's a place to start (and, thankfully, it's administered by
someone besides me!). Also, I'll try to post more often on this
list myself, to start to encourage the type of communication I'd like
to see more of in the future.

Am I the only one who feels like this?
(If so, it may be a frustrating couple of months, with a feeling like
I'm pushing on a string.) Do you have ideas for how to build and
improve the embedded Linux community? Or, do you have ideas for
what might be blocking it?

Project arround hardware help to improve the community
Maybe elinux could work arround this too.

I've got lots more to say, but this is already long enough.
(Just wait until you hear my philosophy of kernel size reduction... ;-)

I do work on this too but I do not think it will be easy at the mainline as
arm and linaro push more and more on single zImage and co that are not so
compatible with kernel size reduction.

Best Regards,
J.

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 9:12 AM, Tim Bird <tim.bird@...> wrote:

Hi everyone,

I have for some time been considering the state of the embedded
Linux community, and some of the challenges facing us. As an
embedded Linux developer myself, I am interested in improving
both my own working conditions and my efficiency and
effectiveness in my own projects. But also I think we could
be having more fun, and learning and growing more if our
community were stronger.

In this message I am writing some of my own ideas, and would like
to solicit feedback on these and get other people's ideas as well.

Tim speaks for me in every word. I have been working to address some
of these issues from within the Yocto Project community as well, but
as Tim says, they are really endemic to embedded Linux - and indeed to
embedded systems, where the heterogeneity of hardware naturally leads
to fragmentation, and the huge volumes and relatively low margins
leads to a culture of secrecy among companies that bleeds into open
source. It is a magnificent challenge, and I think it stretches the
open source culture in some really fantastic ways.

Tim - thanks very much for discussing this. I look forward to
participating in the ensuing discussions, and action items, and I'll
do some thinking over the weekend about where I personally and the
Yocto Project in general can contribute.

<snip>


--
Jeff Osier-Mixon http://jefro.net/blog
Yocto Project Community Manager @Intel http://yoctoproject.org

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 1:12 PM, Thomas Petazzoni
<thomas.petazzoni@...> wrote:

Robert,

On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 18:29:16 +0200, Robert Schwebel wrote:

Last year after ELC-E after a mini-crossbuild-summit, we asked if it was
possible to get planet.elinux.org as an RSS aggregator site, similar to
planet.linaro.org, planetkde.org etc. I still think the idea is great,
as it would give us a central place to look at if you want to know what
the embedded Linux community is doing.

What do you think? Would that be possible, technically?

Yes, I remember that we discussed planet.elinux.org with Peter
Korsgaard (Cc'ed) and you, and Peter and I contacted Tim with this idea
after our discussion, but it didn't go anywhere.

Acutally, I've got planet.elinux.org almost set up. The planet.planet
software is in place. I just have to match the skin to the elinux.org
skin and add a wiki page to elinux.org describing how to get embedded
linux blogs onto the planet site. Thanks for bringing this back to
the fore, as I'd kind of put it on the back burner for a bit.

This idea however hasn't left my mind, so just less than two weeks ago,
I have started a news site dedicated to Embedded Linux:
http://www.emlinews.net/, but I didn't announce it publicly until now.
I was planning on waiting a bit more before doing a public
announcement, but this discussion seems like a good way to announce
this project.

It does not intend to have long editorial articles (like LWN.net has),
but rather short news of things happening in the embedded Linux space:
hardware platforms, boards, tools, kernel stuff, Android stuff,
conferences, meetings, etc.

It is of course different from a "simple" RSS aggregator, in that each
article needs to be written by someone. My plan is to open up the site
so that people can contribute news items. For now, it is only a simple
blog, to experiment whether there is interest for such a news site, and
to see whether it is sustainable or not to regularly write news on this
topic on an volunteer basis.

Best regards,

Thomas
--
Thomas Petazzoni, Free Electrons
Kernel, drivers, real-time and embedded Linux
development, consulting, training and support.
http://free-electrons.com
_______________________________________________
Celinux-dev mailing list
Celinux-dev@...
https://lists.celinuxforum.org/mailman/listinfo/celinux-dev

On 09/28/2012 10:12 AM, Thomas Petazzoni wrote:

...so just less than two weeks ago,
I have started a news site dedicated to Embedded Linux:
http://www.emlinews.net/, but I didn't announce it publicly until now.
I was planning on waiting a bit more before doing a public
announcement, but this discussion seems like a good way to announce
this project.

It does not intend to have long editorial articles (like LWN.net has),
but rather short news of things happening in the embedded Linux space:
hardware platforms, boards, tools, kernel stuff, Android stuff,
conferences, meetings, etc.

It is of course different from a "simple" RSS aggregator, in that each
article needs to be written by someone. My plan is to open up the site
so that people can contribute news items. For now, it is only a simple
blog, to experiment whether there is interest for such a news site, and
to see whether it is sustainable or not to regularly write news on this
topic on an volunteer basis.

This looks pretty good. I will definitely bookmark it, and can contribute
if you're open to articles being written by outsiders.
-- Tim

=============================
Tim Bird
Architecture Group Chair, CE Workgroup of the Linux Foundation
Senior Staff Engineer, Sony Network Entertainment
=============================

Robert,

On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 18:29:16 +0200, Robert Schwebel wrote:

Last year after ELC-E after a mini-crossbuild-summit, we asked if it was
possible to get planet.elinux.org as an RSS aggregator site, similar to
planet.linaro.org, planetkde.org etc. I still think the idea is great,
as it would give us a central place to look at if you want to know what
the embedded Linux community is doing.

What do you think? Would that be possible, technically?

Yes, I remember that we discussed planet.elinux.org with Peter
Korsgaard (Cc'ed) and you, and Peter and I contacted Tim with this idea
after our discussion, but it didn't go anywhere.

This idea however hasn't left my mind, so just less than two weeks ago,
I have started a news site dedicated to Embedded Linux:
http://www.emlinews.net/, but I didn't announce it publicly until now.
I was planning on waiting a bit more before doing a public
announcement, but this discussion seems like a good way to announce
this project.

It does not intend to have long editorial articles (like LWN.net has),
but rather short news of things happening in the embedded Linux space:
hardware platforms, boards, tools, kernel stuff, Android stuff,
conferences, meetings, etc.

It is of course different from a "simple" RSS aggregator, in that each
article needs to be written by someone. My plan is to open up the site
so that people can contribute news items. For now, it is only a simple
blog, to experiment whether there is interest for such a news site, and
to see whether it is sustainable or not to regularly write news on this
topic on an volunteer basis.

Best regards,

Thomas
--
Thomas Petazzoni, Free Electrons
Kernel, drivers, real-time and embedded Linux
development, consulting, training and support.
http://free-electrons.com

On 09/28/2012 09:29 AM, Robert Schwebel wrote:

Hi Tim,

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 09:12:35AM -0700, Tim Bird wrote:

For example, elinux.org has some great areas dedicated to BeagleBoard
and Raspberry Pi, and the section on boot time has lots of good
material. But the content in some other areas is outdated or otherwise
lacking.

I wouldn't worry too much, elinux.org is still a great site! Just
organize a few sprints with nice giveaways at ELC-E from time to time :)

I guess I should make sure we get some nice giveaways at ELCE coming
up. :-) We weren't sure if we were going to run a contest, but
maybe it would make sense (if I can get some prize donors), especially
since I'll be announcing a new project that allows micro-contributions.

Last year after ELC-E after a mini-crossbuild-summit, we asked if it was
possible to get planet.elinux.org as an RSS aggregator site, similar to
planet.linaro.org, planetkde.org etc. I still think the idea is great,
as it would give us a central place to look at if you want to know what
the embedded Linux community is doing.

What do you think? Would that be possible, technically?

I think it would be a good thing to try out...

We discussed this, and I think Bill Traynor (the elinux admin)
outlined a plan - but we didn't end up doing it for some reason.
Maybe Bill can tell us the status, and whether we could move
forward with it.

Among the best things we have, I believe, is our conferences, (ELC,
ELCE, the Japan Jamborees, and various other events).

Very true!

What about live streaming, to reach more people? :-)

We did live-streaming at ELC, but (for reasons I'm not aware of)
will not be live-streaming ELCE. I think the plan going forward
is to live-stream as much as possible. Free Electrons plans to
be at ELCE and record video again (thanks very much!!)

To be less abstract: I'm leaning towards having a "size" summit at
ELC. What's the best way to get people there who are (still)
interested in reducing the kernel and user-space size for embedded
Linux systems?

Well, that's in fact *really* special, as even in Embedded, size isn't
so much of an issue as it was previously. However, due to our Cortex-M3
activities, it is currently interesting for us.

This is exactly the type of thing I'm interested in hearing about!

I started looking at some size issues on Coretex-M3 back in May. Then
I went to LinuxCon Japan in June, and during a lightning session a
developer there started talking about how he was working on Coretex-M3.
I about fell out of my chair.

I think concern about size is ready for a comeback!! At least, that's
what I'm hoping. :-)
-- Tim

P.S. BTW: My goal is kernel in 1M and system in 4M RAM (with 8M NOR flash,
so, you know, XIP and all is OK.) If anyone has got a system running
close to these specs, let me know. I'd REALLY love to hear about it.

P.P.S. Note that the virtualization guys would love a system this small,
if it wasn't hobbled too bad. Think of the number of images you could
run (and charge for) simultaneously on big hardware if you could get Linux
to go this small. I have some crazy ideas about how to get there,
based on some academic research I've found...

=============================
Tim Bird
Architecture Group Chair, CE Workgroup of the Linux Foundation
Senior Staff Engineer, Sony Network Entertainment
=============================

Hi Tim,

On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 09:12:35AM -0700, Tim Bird wrote:

For example, elinux.org has some great areas dedicated to BeagleBoard
and Raspberry Pi, and the section on boot time has lots of good
material. But the content in some other areas is outdated or otherwise
lacking.

I wouldn't worry too much, elinux.org is still a great site! Just
organize a few sprints with nice giveaways at ELC-E from time to time :)

Last year after ELC-E after a mini-crossbuild-summit, we asked if it was
possible to get planet.elinux.org as an RSS aggregator site, similar to
planet.linaro.org, planetkde.org etc. I still think the idea is great,
as it would give us a central place to look at if you want to know what
the embedded Linux community is doing.

What do you think? Would that be possible, technically?

Among the best things we have, I believe, is our conferences, (ELC,
ELCE, the Japan Jamborees, and various other events).

Very true!

What about live streaming, to reach more people? :-)

To be less abstract: I'm leaning towards having a "size" summit at
ELC. What's the best way to get people there who are (still)
interested in reducing the kernel and user-space size for embedded
Linux systems?

Well, that's in fact *really* special, as even in Embedded, size isn't
so much of an issue as it was previously. However, due to our Cortex-M3
activities, it is currently interesting for us.

rsc
--
Pengutronix e.K. | |
Industrial Linux Solutions | http://www.pengutronix.de/ |
Peiner Str. 6-8, 31137 Hildesheim, Germany | Phone: +49-5121-206917-0 |
Amtsgericht Hildesheim, HRA 2686 | Fax: +49-5121-206917-5555 |